with 

Gerard Penning

Supervisory Board Member Alliander

Supervisory Board Member SEforALL

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Fmr CHRO ABN AMRO

Fmr EVP HR SHELL

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&

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David Lanigan, Host HR VOICES

 

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Can you share with us what sort of new complexities do you see evolving for leaders today?
A couple of things that jump to mind. And first of all, the famous VUCA, it was real, 10 / 15 years ago 
The base of that that volatility and uncertainty. And therefore the difficulty of carving out a path forward for leaders has definitely increased.
and then of course on the technology side, events such as Chat GPT, which I definitely disrupted probably at early stages, but we'll see the difference of that.

I think that that's definitely is an important one. I think the other thing is transparency. Transparency was was was definitely there when I started working.
And but the level of transparency and scrutiny when your board member like I was at the bank has definitely changed quite dramatically actually.
So every step you make every move. As good song by the way, what's the difference? And is scrutinised and and understandably because of all kind of events and the banking world of course 2008 was a major event where which brought a lot of banks out to their knees or they went bankrupt.
And like always with these things, there's an overreaction of the market. So complexity and uncertainties and scrutiny from the outside world.
And with that come, desire side effects like more control, but also undesired side effects that like as a person.
In a senior job in a board these days. You are dealing with quite a lot of security issues.
Well, the house where I'm sitting right now is for example heavily secure since the time I was at the bank because Some people don't like it when they don't get along.
And most people accept it  and others don't. So it's really a different world than we had 20 years ago.

What key capabilities do you feel leaders should possess to create success in in this environment?
They're a couple of things. first of all, context is very important.
So if you had a startup as a leader, it requires very different skill set, then when you have a mature company that's been around.
And so complex is important then of course the nature of the business that you're in. And what was quite often underrepresented also when it comes to looking for new CEOs or members of executive boards or teams.
I fundamentally believe that's good leaders and I hope that I learned to be at least one is they're never perfect.
I mean my wife who's a psychologist who would always point out a little things that I can do better.
And of course that's true.  They also recognize what they're less good at.
And compensate for that in the composition of the team around them. Now, fortunately, in probably more than half of most senior executives like to surround themselves with people who are a bit like them.
And you see the consequences of that. I called it always mini. I did exactly the same.
Because somebody walks in the room and you talk for 5 min and you think, hey, this is my man or this is the exact lady for the job.
And well, of course, over time, back to your question, you learn to know where you're weaker and not only compensate for that but celebrate the skills and capabilities.
Of somebody who can do something that you can't. So I think that's really important. The second thing is something that children have, but a lot of.
Older people lose is curiosity. It's fundamentally important for me specifically in a rapidly changing world. That you ask more questions.
Then, then you give answers. There's 2 things that happen when you ask questions. First, you make somebody else think.
And even you can guide that thinking. By the nature of the questions that you asked. So next time you don't have to ask the question because people work for you know that that's a topic that you're curious about.
So it's almost strange enough. And more than giving answers, asking questions. Is also teaching people.
It's really important that you have that. And the other really important skills you need to be absolutely excited about.
Did the work, you do the workplace you're in the market you're in. 
Invest a lot of time. And practice, which then comes with making mistakes.
And a lot of people find that painful, that's normal. That's how we humans are wired.
But good leaders, they learn to quickly put that aside and move on. I just went through the biography.
of Steve Jobs, which is my taste. I know that is and you see the same with Elon Musk.
I also went through that just came out I think 2 weeks ago. There's similarities between the 2 personalities.
And like even Musk, when it came to the production line of the car, he basically sort of slept next to the production line, went from kit to kit to fully understand whether that the complexity of what happened, and was really necessary.
And that brings you to the last point. You have to be really precise about what you're offering is on the marketplace, whether it's a product or a service, and then find it on the marketplace, whether it's a product or a surface, and then find create a culture that you find, a creative culture that you find tune it every day.
When the product comes to market, it's never perfect. So it's a great mindset with the people around you.
That every day you can make a small amendment to process and then in a month in a quarter in a year and you have taken quite a lot of steps from other competitors, for example, don't have, that habit.
And that's why you need to be careful with standardization. 
As long as you're prepared to challenge the standard to make sure that you really, do better.
And so I think these are all important, things, I believe. Perhaps the last last is often used worth collaboration.
Which doesn't mean that you huddle up next to the coffee machine with people that you like.
But it's about this marketeer, for example, that is fascinated about Chat GPT.
and works together with a specialist in that domain to come up with a killer marketing campaign.
That without that collaboration, that building between people who are capable of doing really different things would have never occurred.
And that requires something that people immediately notice. And somebody is really interested in them. Which by the way, amongst human is one of best ways to make a connect.
Listening for example is Hard. Specifically when you're busy. And it's exactly when you're busy that you sometimes need to take that time out to really listen.
To people who can give you insights that can make your performance better.


So in terms of bringing more diversity into senior level roles, in your experience, what did you witness those diverse voices had in terms of impact?
first of all, I always like to look at diversity beyond the level of male female and or countries where people are coming from or whatever orientation they have on life.
Into key behaviors and skills. So speaking up to authority. And it's not the exclusive domain of a certain type of person.
some people do it, other people don't. And it's really important for a good functioning leadership team that you have a few people who speak up to afford.
And also when nobody wants to say what is obvious. And the more dominant, of course, a leader, the more necessary it is and more difficult.
And back to experience, I've seen also that I've been optimistic at times with diversity.
So it's actually quite easy if a large enterprise like a shell or a. To bring diversity in some position, it's a strong brand, you can offer people a lot of education and learning and other things.
But when you overdo it, when the Delta, when the gap between that individuals way of working.
Functionality. It's too far away. From the culture and the company where you work. And it's quite often and doesn't end well.
1And so what you need to do is quite a lot of support and coaching for the individual to get used to the culture of the company or she joined, but not too much.
Because that's also I've seen happening quite a lot. You've seen that which is really tragic with quite a lot of female executive.
Who behaved like the alpha male. And it's not them to blame. It's a company to blame who didn't want to promote people who weren't like that.
So you're back to the meeting. And luckily nowadays you see that also in non-executive boards.
And you're quite often at least in the 25 to 35%. Because one diverse people person in a team doesn't have us having.
We've made huge strides. But I'm always careful when I see that versus the expressed in numbers like percentage of women on a board.
t doesn't really tell me a lot. They the man on the team can be more female than the females on the board.
And then when it comes to decision making. How much advantage do you have from the diversity, which makes you to the last point.
And inclusion is of course the most important bit with diversity. Creating diversity is not so hard.
Inclusion also when And you're very busy. As a CEO, I really don't like that second opinion that you're getting or the challenge that you're getting.
Even when you say the right words. And your face expresses that you're clearly annoyed. And power in most companies will make it very hard for that person to make a similar command next time.
So it is, it is a fantastic topic where I don't think you're, shouldn't be the fault in the idea that when you see a 50 50 sort of diversity at the top of of the board and then that you've reached a target.


In your experience, Gerard, why is it so hard then to find and develop the right type of leader?
there's a couple of very practical reasons. So in order to develop as a leader, you need, you need a path of jobs.
To get you develop an experience for example when you run a European company a company based on different European countries It's sort of helpful if you spend some time in some of them.
Germany and France for example or Italy and Belgian entirely different cultures. I worked in Germany for 5 years and that's It's not for everybody.
And so I is difficult. You have to plan that off and you have to free out. That's actually the most important thing.
You have to free up jobs. The people are doing a perfectly okay job. But their safe bear hands.
That's why when people mentioned that in a meeting. As a descriptor of talent, I always get a bit worried.
Because back to the volatile world we talked about a bit. And is the safe pair of hands.
From the boss because it's always looking backwards, going to be your safe bear of hands in this very volatile environment.
that's for me, that's a big question mark. So I think that's the one thing and that means that you have to remove people from jobs.
Which in most cultures and companies it's just a hard thing to do. It's difficult and shell is also difficult.
And, and in Shell because an engineering company they came up with a very good solution I thought And that's to say to people when they got appointed into a job That job is in principle for 4 years.
And after those 4 years, your window opens. You get 6 months of time to find yourself within the company, 85,000 people, a lot of people in show, but not a job.
If you can't find another job within 6 months, and there there will no longer be a role for you, but we will be compensating you in in quite a good way.

different approach you want more marketing it you want more sales in it you want more technology knowledge in the team you have more banking knowledge in the team.
And when you've identified the individual has that skillset. There's always this debate about content knowledge and leadership.
And I, over the years I tend to be more into a nurture over nature. So yes, and nature gives you a lot of good things.
But if you really want to learn something It's amazing what people can achieve. So I'm rather have a massively excited learner.
Then, an okay. In terms of motivation, no work. So somebody who knows the space very well.
Because knowledge can get in a way. And I, specifically in rapidly changing industries and, and what industry is not nowadays.
And knowing a lot of stuff, and it's not always an advantage. And it comes back to asking questions if you don't have all the answers.
You're forced to ask them questions. And sometimes you get a good answer and sometimes a really lousy one then if you get a lousy 1 5 times you might not have the right person in the job.
That's I think these are and then the last thing is That's all fortunate. And, but the HR profession, is still in development.
And I fundamentally believe that people agenda is not for HR, but for every leader also in the top of the house.
People's strategy is just like I financial plan doesn't mean that CFO And it's the only one who thinks about money in the company.
I think it's ridiculous that that the chief HR should be the only one in the company who statistically thinks about people.
 Is everybody's job? But achievement, are also brings additional skills and capabilities and hopefully experience. But unfortunately, that the marriage between having business skills.
And being a strong leader. And HR is a difficult combination. And my working theory is that if you have that skill set to be very business oriented.
And you are a strong leader. Very few will select HR as a discipline because being in marketing or sales or commercial roles.
In the in the big order of things in most companies is still more powerful than being in HR
that's why it's difficult.

Can you lead us through some easy steps you can take to begin showing better Leadership

I think it's important, that you spend time as an executive team. They love that in Shell
To actually define what sort of leadership you want. That's 2 reasons why that is very important. First, when you code develop the attributes and the language around leadership.
That is an act of leadership in its own right. And because doesn't need to be a one session but if you've gone through that as a leadership team it's also a team building effort and the language that you then use to describe either good or badly, it goes away beyond, I really like John, I think he's doing a good job or, Now be a bit more precise on what exactly.
And that's the second point. Describe the leadership you want in a simple language. That you can disseminate across the enterprise so that people know what they aspire to see role models for what they what they want to learn.
Be clear in their 360 feedback about what areas of leadership they still have to step up so it doesn't become a black box or secrets.
And then of course, the third thing perhaps is is that you when you make appointments You bet across reference in that appointment why the person you've hired for seeing your job is actually congruent with the leadership attributes that you share in the in the company as being imported.
Because the first sheer appointment where somebody is clearly appointed who doesn't have those attributes. People say this all bullshit.
t's just. And, so to give you a practical example, maybe, one of the first things we did as an executive team, spent time on what sort of leadership attributes we were looking for.
And the process was as important as what we came up with. 3 Cs was care. And care also means that if somebody is not functioning and everybody knows it.
you can act on that. Yeah, doesn't mean shop. care means that you care for your customers for your processes for your internal.
There was the second one. Because you have a kind of, we will know those people, they they can tell you precisely what is wrong about something, but they haven't done anything about it themselves.
Redefined cards as a really important one and that can show relatively early on. And somebody just joins at age 25.
Do they show courage in their behavior? The car is not reckless. Is not a good idea for bank, but cards is very important.
And then collaboration. This capability to build bridges, that's my definition, with people who are different than you are.
And that is, skilled to some extent you, you can learn. But it really, and requires a lot of practice because you get, so that was.
we then roll that out literally and people what I really love is being educated by your beliefs. For me as a leader that shows that you're making progress.
When people started quoting, one of those free to be. In terms of all my own behaviors.
Or in a moment where I was really impressed for time, what was did you use the opportunity to collaborate?
Then you know that you, so that is really, an important one and back to leadership.
Then of course, leaders need to exemplify those. That's abuse and then And course referencing is very important.
 As one thing I forgot to say when you want 5,000 or 10,000 or in the banks guys 25,000 to show 85 when you want a large community of people to embrace something.
And it's very good to celebrate successes. So if there's a great example that somebody has a established around either of those 3 or whatever new attributes are.
Generally, that is, specifically in the context of Europe, you see it a lot better in some other places.
And celebrating success is underestimated. As a way to give people pride in what they do, this whole purpose aspect.
he company that they have been part of in the social, social fabric that you build. When you occasionally let your head down and celebrate an event.
And appreciate each other's company outside of work.

So in your opinion is the role of HR or in need of change when it comes to developing successful people?

Yes, of course, I wouldn't do justice to a lot of people who do very well. I know that by name.
But if, if you take a step back and look at the HR function. And I still believe that that people I see that also at conferences.
Are too much in love with the toolkit. And so you're an expert in talent management, succession planning and learning.
And organizational design. Great. But for me, completely irrelevant without the context of a very specific strategy of a very specific business.
And, so yes. Does work today, which is good because it means that's, as a function we can improve.
Did you come a long way in the last 2025 years? Absolutely, of course, personnel administration when I when I joined.
And I was lucky to join Shell who at the time was 1990. And already had quite a strong established.
And a young resource practice. And, but now there's a lot of work to do. And I, what I specifically.
Well, I'm curious about how it will develop. Is the collaboration between HR. And new tools to deal with data.
 Including the chat GPTs of this one. And can we find? The sweet spot. Where intelligence that we gather from data.
And is used in a very smart way to advance your company. Your product or your service or a combination of both.
And HR data, of course, and data analytics. Have again the last 10 15 years moved on quite a bit.
Interesting enough in my experience also with data analytics. The most important skill that you have is a manager who owns that space.
Is what questions you ask. And in order to ask the right questions, you need to understand the subject.
So I don't believe in slogans like let the data do the talking. They thought very rarely, that's the talking.
It is the interpretation of that data in a specific context in a specific environment. And so I think, yeah, the HR function has made.
Huge strides and I think it can it can even further develop. And, I would love to see HR.
Taking more ownership of the entire people component of the strategy of an organization. And that also means a very strong interleave.
Business strategy for the business and the people strategy for everybody. And a lot of companies and I would live if I would say that was also my experience the last 10 years you still have to create interest for the people agenda amongst people who deal with other parts of the portfolio of a company.